Data - Aircraft in your Neighbourhood
Dear Airservices Australia,
I refer to your website link on Aircraft in Your Neighbourhood.
This site lists data on flight volumes (by day/hour) and height.
The data listed on your website massively understates the ACTUAL flights passing over the Primrose Sands.
I would like information on the below questions.
Q: Can you please provide a clear (easy to read) map listing the actual 1km x 1km grid area that you are using for each of the communities of Primrose Sands, Forcett, and Carlton River.
The graph listing on the aircraft height near me separates figures into Cambridge Airport and Hobart International Airport.
Q: Can I please have a further breakdown on what types of aircraft are being captured by each venue.
Q: Is your current data from this site being used to make decisions on the current flight path travelling over Primrose Sands? – Could I obtain copies of relevant decision making around this?
Yours faithfully,
Cathy Minnucci
OFFICIAL
Good morning Cathy
Your request below appears to be accommodated for under Airservices' existing data purchase services which you can find here: https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/ind...
As these services are subject to a fee, the documents you seek cannot be accessed under the FOI Act.
Regards
FOI and Privacy Officer
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Dear MBX FOI,
RE: Airservices Australia - existing data purchase services.
Thank you for your reply but it does not address my requests. I do not need data sets but more a flight corridor map and clarity around the inputs imbedded in your graphs.
You are currently graphing plane flights over our suburbs. As mentioned, the data presented in your interactive graphs online (in my opinion), massively understates the ACTUAL flights passing over Primrose Sands.
Q: Please provide a clear (easy to read) map listing the actual 1km x 1km grid area that you are using for each of the communities of Primrose Sands, Forcett, and Carlton River. You mentioned on your website that a reference point exists to calculate your cone coverage.
The graph listing on the “aircraft height near me” separates figures into Cambridge Airport and Hobart International Airport.
Q: Can I please have a further breakdown on what types of aircraft are being captured by each venue? I do not need the data. My understanding is that Cambridge Airport caters for non-jet planes and maybe helicopters and that Hobart International Airport caters for jets, military and maybe also helicopters. In order to understand your graphs, please provide the grouping of aircraft per venue.
Q: Is your current data from this site being used to make decisions on the current flight path travelling over Primrose Sands? – Could I obtain copies of relevant decision making around this?
A current review is underway so I would like a copy of any documentation that directly references your current flight graphs to any decision making around our community area.
Yours sincerely,
Cathy Minnucci
Dear Airservices Australia,
Please pass this on to the person who conducts Freedom of Information reviews.
I am writing to request an internal review of Airservices Australia's handling of my FOI request 'Data - Aircraft in your Neighbourhood'.
Dear MBX FOI,
By law, Airservices Australia should normally have responded promptly and by July 12, 2023, and this has not occurred.
I request that this matter be addressed by a more senior manager.
Yours sincerely,
Cathy Minnucci
OFFICIAL
Dear Cathy
This request in part sought:
- a further breakdown on what types of aircraft are being captured by each venue.
We responded advising that information was not available for access under the FOI Act. You may access this information via a tailored data request here: https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/ind... and this service is subject to a fee. For clarity, there is no legal right to access the data breakdown under the FOI Act (s12).
We note that you responded advising that you are not seeking data sets, however the request does seek tailored data sets to the specifications set out in your request - a breakdown of the types of aircraft captured at each venue.
If you are instead seeking the already-produced data used for specific graphs that are publicly available on the Aircraft in your Neighbourhood site, it would be helpful if you identified these specific graphs and amended the request to seek the data behind them.
The request also included the following question:
Q: Is your current data from this site being used the current flight path travelling over Primrose Sands? – Could I obtain copies of relevant decision making around this
There is no legal obligation to respond to questions under the FOI Act. You can only request access to specific identified documents that are already in existence as at the date of the request.
If you are seeking the decision that gave effect to the current flight paths at Hobart Airport, this was released in response to FOI 23-07 and is attached for your reference.
The final part of the request sought:
- a clear (easy to read) map listing the actual 1km x 1km grid area that you are using for each of the communities of Primrose Sands, Forcett, and Carlton River.
It is unclear if this is seeking for us to generate a new map (which we are not obligated to do under the FOI Act) or instead is seeking a map that we use for a specific purpose, and if it is, what that purpose would be. With further detail on the purpose of this map we can process this part of the request.
Regards
FOI and Privacy Officer
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Dear MBX FOI,
RE: Airservices Australia - Data - "Aircraft in your Neighbourhood".
Thank you for your reply but it once again does not address my requests.
The information sought is relevant under the FOI Act.
As mentioned before…..I do not need data sets but more a flight corridor map and clarity around the inputs imbedded in your graphs that directly affect our community.
You are currently graphing plane flights over our suburbs. The data presented in your interactive graphs online (in my opinion), massively understates the ACTUAL flights passing over Primrose Sands.
Q: Can you please provide a clear (easy to read) map listing the actual 1km x 1km grid areas that you are using for each of the communities of Primrose Sands, Forcett, and Carlton River TAS to collate the data that you are projecting on your Website under the banner of “Aircraft in Your Neighbourhood”?
You mentioned on your website that you use reference points to calculate your cone coverage. The purpose of the map you are using is to calculate how many aircraft fly over our communities. Can you please provide a copy of this map as it will help me understand the obvious gaps in your projections.
As mentioned before the data presented in your interactive graphs online (in my opinion), massively understates the ACTUAL flights passing over Primrose Sands.
Q: In reference to AS website graphs under the banner of “Aircraft in Your Neighbourhood”, can I please have the breakdown on what types of aircraft (either non-jet/jet/military/ helicopter) that are being attributed to each Airport – (Cambridge Airport and Hobart International Airport.) I do not need the data. My understanding is that Cambridge Airport caters for non-jet planes and maybe helicopters and that Hobart International Airport caters for jets, military and maybe also helicopters. In order to understand your public website graphs, please provide the type of aircraft (non-jet/jet/military/ helicopter) by venue.
Q: Is the current flight data from “Aircraft in Your Neighbourhood”, used to make decisions on the current flight path travelling over Primrose Sands?
The document you provided to me (FOI 23-07) did not even acknowledge the communities of Primrose Sands, Forcett and Carlton River in your planning. The majority of the document was based on the Hobart flight path changes across other Southern Beach communities.
A current Review is underway so I ask yet again…can you please provide a copy of the top 3 levels of Management documentation from AS and or other government departments that directly references your current flight graphs and data to decision making around the flight path over our community areas of Primrose Sands, Forcett and Carlton River TAS.
Yours sincerely,
Cathy Minnucci
OFFICIAL
Good afternoon Cathy
It appears that we are talking in circles, and the request as set out below continues to be both unclear and requesting things that cannot be requested under the FOI Act.
Would you be able to contact me via private email at [Airservices request email] so that I can provide you with my direct contact phone number to discuss? I'm unsure if we're seeing much benefit in discussing this matter via email in this public forum.
Regards
FOI and Privacy Officer
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Dear MBX FOI,
I am not trying to be difficult but would like some clarity around the information that you are presenting on your Website.
You are currently graphing plane flights over our suburbs. The data presented in your interactive graphs online, massively understates the ACTUAL flights passing over Primrose Sands TAS.
I have run my request through three other people and they all agree it IS a FOI request.
So I will try yet again….My request is quite simple.
I am wondering why there is a discrepancy on your AS website “Aircraft in your Neighbourhood” for Primrose Sands TAS.
It indicates roughly 20 -30 flights per month when there are up to 30 flights and above daily?
This would equate in your graph as 300 per year when in fact it is closer to 10,000 + flights per year!!
Furthermore, the majority of flights are no more than 1,000 feet above our heads but your graphing collates the 93% + majority at 2,000 feet.
The questions relate to how you are collating your information on your public site and if you are using this data to make Executive decisions within the current PIR for the Hobart Flight Path changes that affect our community.
Q: Can you please provide a clear (easy to read) map listing the actual 1km x 1km tracking grid areas that you are using for each of the communities of Primrose Sands, Forcett, and Carlton River TAS to collate the data that you are projecting on your Website under the banner of “Aircraft in Your Neighbourhood”?
Q: Can you please provide a copy of the top three levels of Management documentation from AS and or other government departments that directly references your current flight graphs and data to decision making around the flight path over our community areas of Primrose Sands, Forcett and Carlton River TAS.
Every possible negative influence: noise pollution, air pollution, and flight volumes bombard our living space. Our quiet community has been transformed into an aerial freeway. You changed the pre-2017 Hobart flight path without any consultation to our community.
I see your “talking in circles” comment as nothing more than evasive and not facilitating an open, honest, and genuine conversation to clarify the situation.
Yours sincerely,
Cathy Minnucci
OFFICIAL
Good morning Cathy
Our offer to discuss your potential request via phonecall was not intended as an evasive tactic but rather a genuine effort to help you make a valid FOI request. This offer remains open should you wish to take it.
I have discussed your questions with the Noise Complaints team who indicated that they are happy to discuss them with you.
You can contact them through this page here: https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/com.... I recommend discussing any concerns you may have regarding decisions to change flight paths around Hobart with them.
As part of our discussion they advised that when you view graphs on the Aircraft in your Neighbourhood website that fall under the category of "What is normal in my area?" you are not viewing the results for entire "communities", but rather for the 1km x 1km square where you have placed the pin indicating your location when you first enter the site.
If you are finding a discrepancy between the air activity that you physically can see in the community and that produced on the site, it could be that the absent activity is accommodated for in a different 1km x 1km piece of area of your community. For example, if a plane flies over one side of a community, it may appear in the data for that 1km x 1km square of the community, but not in a 1km x 1km square on the other side of it.
For clarity, the Aircraft in your Neighbourhood website does not generate singular graphs that cover full communities - only the 1km x 1km square that you've personally indicated. As we do not use the website to track activities in complete communities (nor has it the ability to do so), there's no document we hold that would fulfil the first part of your request.
If you are looking for graphs that do consider communities more broadly I recommend reviewing the 2022 Post Implementation Report for the Hobart Airpsace Design Review. It includes graphs for noise monitoring at Primrose Sands. It also considers the option of reverting to the 2017 flight paths at paragraph G.2.1 (page 111). You can find it here: https://engage.airservicesaustralia.com/...
For the second part of your request, you'll need to provide further information on the specifc "graphs" you are referring to, what is intended by "top three levels of Management documentation".
If you are seeking the information that was considered in changing the flight paths in Hobart in 2017 these were provided to you on 21 July 2023 in response to FOI 23-15.
I understand that you have concerns regarding what was or was not considered in making that decision. I recommend that you discuss these concerns with the Noise Complaints team who are in a position to discuss them more completely.
Regards
FOI and Privacy Officer
This email (including any attachments) is confidential and may be privileged. Any advice or information contained in this email (including any attachments) is provided only for the use of Airservices Australia or the intended recipient. You must not retransmit or distribute this email or any attachments unless you are specifically authorised to do so. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender, immediately delete this email from your mailbox and destroy any hard copies.
Dear MBX FOI,
Thank you for clarification around how you are tracking flights.
I will also try and contact your Noise Complaints Team for further clarification and I thank you for the link.
So, your reply confirms that the data is specific to a 1km x 1km grid (which is what is listed on your website), and is not reflective of results for our entire community.
You have also stated that you do not have maps that collate the inputs for your data sets for "What is normal in my area".
As mentioned before, each question I asked related to how you are collating your information on your public site and if you are using this flight data to make Executive decisions within the current PIR for the Hobart Flight Path changes that directly affect our community.
I will try again.
Q: Can you please provide a copy of the top three levels of Management documentation from AS and or other government departments that directly references this flight data to decision making around the flight path over our community areas of Primrose Sands, Forcett and Carlton River TAS.
These documents would be where your Management has used the flight statistic sets as a basis to make the decision to proceed with the flight path over our community.
Yours sincerely,
Cathy Minnucci
OFFICIAL
Hi Cathy
I understand that you are looking for the "flight statistic sets" that Airservices gave reference to in deciding on certain flight paths around Hobart in 2017.
You have been provided with the decision to change the flight paths, and the CASA report that recommended that the flightpaths be changed. If you are concerned that this decision did not include or give regard to "flight statistic sets", I recommend discussing this with the noise complaint team.
You may also want to review the 2018 Aircraft Noise Ombudsman's investigation into the decision which occurred directly as a result of concerns similar to yours. It goes into further details behind the reasons for the 2017 decision, including how noise impact was assessed https://ano.gov.au/wp-content/uploads/20....
The noise complaints team will likely be able to assist you further, including providing advice on the developments since 2017.
Regards
FOI and Privacy Officer
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Dear MBX FOI,
Your data sets and graphs for Aircraft in your Neighbourhood website that falls under the category of "What is normal in my area?" only came into effect in 2020 (I believe).
I continue to thank you for your links to older Airservices Online Documents pre-2019 but I am talking about the current decisions around flights and noise specifically in the areas of Primrose Sands, Forcett and Carlton River. A current review is still underway, and we are now in 2023.
These were areas that previously had NO FLIGHT ACTIVITY whatsoever and now we are being bombarded with > 30 flights per day.
As mentioned before, each question I asked related to how you are collating your information on your public site and if you are using this flight data to make Executive decisions within the current PIR for the Hobart Flight Path changes that directly affect our community.
I have spoken with a member of your Noise Complaints Team and discussed the graphs.
They are unable to assist with the following FOI request so I will try again.
Q: Can you please provide a copy of the top three levels of Management documentation from AS and or other Government departments that directly references this flight data to decision making around the flight path over our community areas of Primrose Sands, Forcett and Carlton River TAS.
These documents would be where your Management has used the flight statistic sets as a basis to make the decision to PROCEED with the flight path over our community. Please include the flight estimates that would be included in such a document.
Yours sincerely,
Cathy Minnucci
Dear MBX FOI,
I refer to my initial request for FOI to you on the 12 June 2023.
We are now at the end of August and my requests (in my opinion) are being drip-fed with links and previously supplied media announcements and reports.
You have bombarded our previously peaceful (flight-free) community of Primrose Sands with 30+ flights per day. The request below is simple -provide the information you used to justify your decision-making.
Q: Can you please provide a copy of the top three levels of Management documentation from AS and or other Government departments that directly references this flight data to decision making around the flight path over our community areas of Primrose Sands, Forcett and Carlton River TAS.
These documents would be where your Management has used the flight statistic sets as a basis to make the decision to PROCEED with the flight path over our community. Please include the flight estimates that would be included in such a document.
Yours sincerely,
Cathy Minnucci
OFFICIAL
Good morning Cathy
To date the only changes to the Hobart flight paths that were made in 2017 (when SIDS/STARS were introduced) and in 2019 (as a result of the PIR). You have been provided with both of these decisions as a result of your enquiries to date.
There are no further decisions to change or "proceed" with the flight paths, only those referred above and provided to you. As a result, the further documentation you are seeking does not exist.
If you would like to proceed to formally request the "flight statistic sets used as a basis to make the decision to PROCEED with the flight path over the Primrose Sands, Forcett and Carlton River TAS areas", let us know so that we can issue a formal decision to the above effect for you.
I understand that you may be concerned that Airservices did not give reference to statistics regarding flights in the Primrose Sands, Forcett and Carlton River TAS areas when making decisions regarding flight paths in the Hobart area. You may wish to contact the Noise Complaints team who are in a better position to discuss these concerns with you.
Regards
FOI and Privacy Officer
This email (including any attachments) is confidential and may be privileged. Any advice or information contained in this email (including any attachments) is provided only for the use of Airservices Australia or the intended recipient. You must not retransmit or distribute this email or any attachments unless you are specifically authorised to do so. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender, immediately delete this email from your mailbox and destroy any hard copies.
Dear MBX FOI,
Thank you for your reply but it seems quite contradictory.
You have mentioned that you have provided me with documentation regarding the 2017 and 2019 Hobart flight changes.
No flights previously existed over the community of Primrose Sands TAS.
No mention of our suburb or surrounding communities of Forcett and Carlton River were included in either of these documents.
How is it we have had up to >10,000 flights per year (average 35 per day) in an area that NO FLIGHTS previously EXISTED?
How is it that NO discussion or documentation EXISTS at any management level around the flight statistics or even the community that would be most affected? This is absurd.
I will politely request again and note I apologise if it is not in the correct wording that you require, but I am sure you do actually understand the question.
Q: Can you please provide a copy of the top three levels of Management documentation from AS and or other Government departments that directly references this flight data to decision making around the flight path over our community areas of Primrose Sands, Forcett and Carlton River TAS.
These documents would be where your Management has used the flight statistic sets as a basis to make the decision to PROCEED with the flight path over our community. Please include the flight estimates that would be included in such a document.
Thanking you
Yours sincerely,
Cathy Minnucci
OFFICIAL
Good morning Cathy
We understand your request to seek:
"the documents that show where the top three levels of Airservices management and other Government departments used flight statistic sets as a basis to make the decision to PROCEED with the flight path over the Primrose Sands, Forcett and Carlton River TAS areas".
Please let us know if this does not accurately describe the documents you are seeking.
A decision on this request will be provided to you on or by 4 October 2023.
Regards
FOI and Privacy Officer
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Dear MBX FOI,
Yes...if you could provide these Management decision-making documents it would be appreciated.
Yours sincerely,
Cathy Minnucci
OFFICIAL
Good afternoon Cathy
Please find attached the decision in respect of the request FOI 23-28.
Regards
FOI and Privacy Officer
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Dear MBX FOI,
Thank you for your reply.
You have indicated that no Management documents exist that include reference to flight statistics flying over the previously quiet communities of Primrose Sands, Forcett, and Carlton River.
I note no flights have ever existed over Primrose Sands until your recent changes to Hobart Airport.
I also note Primrose Sands was not even considered as a viable flight path alternative because flights would be too low, noisy, pollution would be more concentrated and the community population was greater than other areas. The community would be greatly disadvantaged!!!
From your comment, I can only ascertain that if Airservices Australia are not looking at numbers of aircraft concentration over vulnerable communities as part of Flight Path Design and decision making, then Airservices Australia do not consider communities at all when designing flight paths.
The question is WHY NOT?? Your flight path design and implementation process is WRONG!!!
My apology, but this will be escalated.
If innocent people living in their own homes, are adversely disadvantaged by your flight path decisions when a commonsense option is clearly available 13km EAST over water, then it is clear that this request needs to be handled by an organisation that hopefully values real people above corporate profits.
Yours sincerely,
Cathy Minnucci