The dilapidation report on the Bastion Point groyne wall prepared by Magryn and Associates, and the report prepared by other consultants but not prefered by Council.
Dear East Gippsland Shire Council,
Could I please have a copy of the dilapidation report on the Bastion Point groyne wall prepared by Magryn and Associates, as well as a copy of the report on the wall commissioned from other consultants but not preferred by you? If there were more than the two reports received, I'd appreciate a copy of all of them.
Yours faithfully,
Patsy Lisle
Thank you for contacting the East Gippsland Shire Council
If your enquiry is urgent, please call us on 03 51 539 500, our call
service is available after-hours and public holidays as well as business
days.
We wish to advise that we have received your correspondence and will
respond to you as soon as possible.
Thank you for contacting Council.
Good afternoon Ms Lisle,
Please find the attached correspondence in relation to your request made
under the Freedom of Information Act 1982.
Kind regards,
Ela Alexander < Freedom of Information Officer < [2]East
Gippsland Shire Council
<P: 03 5153 9500 <F: 03 5153 9576 < PO Box 1618, Bairnsdale, Vic
[1][IMG] 3875
<[3]Have Your Say: Find information about our projects and
strategies, and give feedback as part of our consultation
process.
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
East Gippsland Shire Council acknowledges the Gunaikurnai, Monero and the
Bidawel people as the Traditional Custodians of the land that encompasses
East Gippsland Shire.
We pay our respects to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people
living in East Gippsland, their Elders past and present.
References
Visible links
1. http://www.eastgippsland.vic.gov.au/
2. http://www.eastgippsland.vic.gov.au/
3. https://yoursay.eastgippsland.vic.gov.au/
Dear Freedom of Information,
Thank you to the FOI officer at EGSC for your reply.
As per your instructions, I will pay the application fee required for an FOI request to be valid. You have also included this request for clarification:
"From the information provided, we have assumed that you intend to seek to access to:- “All dilapidation reports on the Bastion Point Groyne Wall held by the Council during 2022/2023”. Could you please confirm in writing that my assumption is correct?"
To clarify:
I'm seeking the dilapidation report Council has publicly acknowledged receipt of, generated by Magryn and Associates in 2023. In addition, I'm seeking information provided to Council by at least one other consultancy on the problems with the Bastion Point groyne wall. I believe there was at least one other consultancy engaged because a consultant who worked on it has mentioned the fact and that their findings were not what Council wanted. Whether those findings had been finalised before rejection by Council as a dilapidation report or whether it was in some sort of preliminary document, I have no idea. I also don't know the time frame of your investigations, so I can't say for sure if the other consultancy was engaged and finished with by 2022.
I'm sorry this is so vague, but that's the problem when there is so little transparency.
I also don't know if Council engaged more than two consultancies before getting the kind of response they were after. If Council has been provided with documents by any other consultancies engaged to try to deal with this $6million disaster, which outline their expert views of what is wrong with the break wall and what should be done, then I'd like a copy. Clearly, only someone with inside knowledge of Council's operations could correctly provide dates or names of the documents.
Yours sincerely,
Patsy Lisle
Dear Freedom of Information,
Further to my first reply to the EGSC FOI officer, I thought the following might help to make what I'm after clear. As I said previously, it's not possible for me to provide the correct names and dates of documents, when Council has not been transparent about the information they have sought and hold.
I want to have a copy of the dilapidation report referred to by Council. But I'd also like to see copies of any other documents containing advice to Council on the problems related to the Bastion Point facility from engineering consultants or other coastal infrastructure experts. (However, I don't mean you to include what might be extensive documentation on all the ongoing problems Council encounters with the dredge(s).) I'd also like to see all advice about what Council could or couldn't do to manage the problems. That would include any documents from Magryn and Associates containing advice not contained in the dilapidation report.
I hope that makes it clearer. You see, the vast majority of residents opposed the building of the facility because expert opinion made it clear it was not fit for purpose. Ocean access is essential to the township, but Council is not letting us know the full story about this dangerous and inappropriate structure that a previous Council saddled us with, despite all advice to the contrary. It's important to have access to all the information about the very expensive path Council has now chosen to follow, as well as possible alternatives.
Yours sincerely,
Patsy Lisle
Good afternoon Patsy
Thank you for your emails dated 13 May 2024 and 17 May 2024 which sought
to clarify your Request to East Gippsland Shire Council (“Council”) for
access to documents under the Freedom of Information Act 1982 (Vic) (“FOI
Act”).
In your email of 13 May 2024, you provided the following information:
“To clarify:
I’m seeking the dilapidation report Council has publicly acknowledged
receipt of, generated by Magryn and Associates in 2023. In addition, I'm
seeking information provided to Council by at least one other consultancy
on the problems with the Bastion Point groyne wall ... If Council has been
provided with documents by any other consultancies engaged to try to deal
with this $6million disaster, which outline their expert views of what is
wrong with the break wall and what should be done, then I'd like a copy.
Clearly, only someone with inside knowledge of Council's operations could
correctly provide dates or names of the documents.”
“I believe there was at least one other consultancy engaged because a
consultant who worked on it has mentioned the fact and that their findings
were not what Council wanted. Whether those findings had been finalised
before rejection by Council as a dilapidation report or whether it was in
some sort of preliminary document, I have no idea. I also don't know the
time frame of your investigations, so I can't say for sure if the other
consultancy was engaged and finished with by 2022.
I’m sorry this is so vague, but that’s the problem when there is so little
transparency.”
Your email of 17 May 2024 provided further clarification of the documents
you seek, as follows:
“I want to have a copy of the dilapidation report referred to by Council.
But I'd also like to see copies of any other documents containing advice
to Council on the problems related to the Bastion Point facility from
engineering consultants or other coastal infrastructure experts.
(However, I don't mean you to include what might be extensive
documentation on all the ongoing problems Council encounters with the
dredge(s).) I'd also like to see all advice about what Council could or
couldn't do to manage the problems. That would include any documents from
Magryn and Associates containing advice not contained in the dilapidation
report.”
“As I said previously, it’s not possible for me to provide the correct
names and dates of documents, when Council has not been transparent about
the information they have sought and hold.”
Validity requirements under the FOI Act
In my letter of 13 May 2024, I set out the rights and procedural steps in
sections 13 and 17 of the Act that must be satisfied before a valid
request for access to documents exists.
Unfortunately, your Request remains to be ambiguous, unclear or otherwise
ill defined, meaning it still does not comply with the FOI Act so that it
need not be processed. Based upon the information provided, officers of
the agency would be left guessing what documents are actually sought.
Further, a valid request seeks access to documents and not to
information. A request for information will not be validly made as it
does not identify the documents sought.
In our view, your Request remains to be ambiguous and unclear, and does
not provide sufficient information to enable the Council to identify all
the documents sought within reasonable time and with exercise of
reasonable effort.
Meeting with you to clarify your request
To get a better understanding of the documents that you are seeking, we
would like to arrange and set up a Teams online meeting with the subject
matter expert to discuss this further. However, we note that you
presently correspond with the Council via righttoknow.org.au and our
correspondence with you is made publicly available on that website (via
[1]https://www.righttoknow.org.au/request/t...
That means that the details of our meeting (such as the date, time and
link to the meeting) will be publicly accessible. That creates a risk of
third parties joining our Teams meeting and potentially obtaining any
personal information you disclose to the Council in that meeting. To
avoid the risk of this occurring, we would like to arrange a meeting with
you via your personal email address. Could you please provide me with
your best email address by no later than midday Thursday 13 June 2024.
Once you have done so, I will send you further details regarding the Teams
meeting.
We look forward to hearing from you and assisting you in making a valid
FOI request.
Yours sincerely
Janelle Skipworth < Acting Manager Governance < [3]East
Gippsland Shire Council
<P: 03 5153 9500 <F: 03 5153 9576 < PO Box 1618, Bairnsdale, Vic
[2][IMG] 3875
<[4]Have Your Say: Find information about our projects and
strategies, and give feedback as part of our consultation
process.
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
East Gippsland Shire Council acknowledges the Gunaikurnai, Monero and the
Bidawel people as the Traditional Custodians of the land that encompasses
East Gippsland Shire.
We pay our respects to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people
living in East Gippsland, their Elders past and present.
References
Visible links
1. https://www.righttoknow.org.au/request/t...
2. http://www.eastgippsland.vic.gov.au/
3. http://www.eastgippsland.vic.gov.au/
4. https://yoursay.eastgippsland.vic.gov.au/
Dear Freedom of Information,
Hello again
Thank you for your reply. I disagree with you that my request is ambiguous, unclear or otherwise ill defined and that it's asking for information not documents. I believe the following to be very clear criteria for locating the relevant documents, in line with the requirements of the FOI Act to "provide sufficient information as is reasonably necessary to identify the documents requested":
"I’m seeking the dilapidation report Council has publicly acknowledged
receipt of, generated by Magryn and Associates in 2023. In addition, I'm
seeking information provided to Council by at least one other consultancy
on the problems with the Bastion Point groyne wall ... If Council has been
provided with documents by any other consultancies engaged to try to deal
with this $6million disaster, which outline their expert views of what is
wrong with the break wall and what should be done, then I'd like a copy."
It's obvious that the information I am seeking is in documents (as I've made explicit), and, as I explained, it's impossible to refer to those documents by title as Council keeps such things hidden. I referred to my own request as 'vague' not because it's ambiguous or ill defined, but because it's impossible for me to provide the title of documents as you demanded unless Council provides us with the names of them.
I appreciate that you are the FOI officer, and receive your wage from public money so you can assist the public to gain access to the documents they seek. Thank you for that, and perhaps you could succeed in my case by locating all the documents relevant to the criteria provided by my request.
If you feel that you can't be sure you're providing what I want by using that unambiguous criteria, perhaps you could provide a list of all the clearly relevant documents, as well as those you're unsure about, and I could let you know which ones I want copies of. If you think publishing such a list on a public platform is somehow dangerous to Council or others, then please send it to my private email address. As requested, I'm providing you with that before midday Thursday, June 2024. It is [email address]
I'll also send my address to you by email to make sure the address is accessible to you. However, I'd like the rest of this FOI request to be conducted on this public platform. I'd like to give Council every possible encouragement to be more transparent.
Yours sincerely,
Patsy Lisle
Good afternoon Patsy
We hope you are well. Thank you for meeting with Renee, Manager
Infrastructure Projects and Ela, Freedom of Information Officer on 14 June
2024 to discuss your FOI request and my apologies for the delayed outcome
of that meeting which has occurred as a result of unexpected leave.
From our discussion with you on 14 June 2024, we understand that you seek
access to:
“Documents about the Bastion Point wall, focusing on its current issues
and resolution from 2015 to current. I’m not seeking documents on the
historical detail and routine maintenance and dredging schedules on the
wall.”
Coud you please confirm by return email that this form of wording is the
request that you wish to make? Once Council has received your
confirmation email, then it will be able to accept your request as valid.
We look forward to hearing from you.
Yours sincerely,
Janelle Skipworth < Acting Manager Governance < [2]East
Gippsland Shire Council
<P: 03 5153 9500 <F: 03 5153 9576 < PO Box 1618, Bairnsdale, Vic
[1][IMG] 3875
<[3]Have Your Say: Find information about our projects and
strategies, and give feedback as part of our consultation
process.
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
East Gippsland Shire Council acknowledges the Gunaikurnai, Monero and the
Bidawel people as the Traditional Custodians of the land that encompasses
East Gippsland Shire.
We pay our respects to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people
living in East Gippsland, their Elders past and present.
References
Visible links
1. http://www.eastgippsland.vic.gov.au/
2. http://www.eastgippsland.vic.gov.au/
3. https://yoursay.eastgippsland.vic.gov.au/
Dear Freedom of Information,
Hello again Janelle
Thank you for replying.
I think my wording to Ela and Renee was clearer than your summary indicates. Perhaps that's because you weren't at the meeting. I have followed your format and trust this will finally be accepted.
I seek access to
Documents about the Bastion Point ocean access facility received from consultants investigating problems with the facility and/or providing proposed solutions dating from the facility's opening in December 2014 until now. That includes the dilapidation report provided by Magryn and Associates in 2023.
Yours sincerely,
Patsy Lisle
Good afternoon Patsy
Thank you for confirming that you seek access under the Freedom of
Information Act 1982 (Vic) to:
“Documents about the Bastion Point ocean access facility received from
consultants investigating problems with the facility and/or providing
proposed solutions dating from the facility's opening in December 2014
until now. That includes the dilapidation report provided by Magryn and
Associates in 2023.”
Your Request is valid, and we are processing it. We have 30 days from the
date we receive your Request to provide you with a decision. As such, the
due date for us to make a decision on your Request is Thursday 1 August
2024.
In the meantime, could you please confirm by return email whether you:
· are content to exclude duplicate documents from your request?
· are content to receive final versions of documents only, with
draft documents excluded?
· seek the personal affairs information of third parties as defined
by s 33(9) of the FOI Act?
· seek the commercial information of third parties?
· insist upon receiving entire copies of documents or agree to
receive edited copies of documents with exempt or irrelevant information
removed?
If you could respond to these matters by Tuesday 16 July 2024, that would
assist us with the processing of your Request.
Extension of time
We may need to extend the due date if we need to consult with third
parties. Consultation is required if the documents you requested contains
information relating to third parties. If we extend the time, we will
notify you and advise you of why it has been extended and by how long.
We may also request your agreement for an extension of time, if we are
unable to provide you with a decision on time.
We look forward to hearing from you.
Yours sincerely
Janelle Skipworth < Acting Manager Governance < [2]East
Gippsland Shire Council
<P: 03 5153 9500 <F: 03 5153 9576 < PO Box 1618, Bairnsdale, Vic
[1][IMG] 3875
<[3]Have Your Say: Find information about our projects and
strategies, and give feedback as part of our consultation
process.
P Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail.
East Gippsland Shire Council acknowledges the Gunaikurnai, Monero and the
Bidawel people as the Traditional Custodians of the land that encompasses
East Gippsland Shire.
We pay our respects to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people
living in East Gippsland, their Elders past and present.
References
Visible links
1. http://www.eastgippsland.vic.gov.au/
2. http://www.eastgippsland.vic.gov.au/
3. https://yoursay.eastgippsland.vic.gov.au/
Dear Freedom of Information,
Dear Janelle,
Thank you for finding my request valid.
In answer to your questions:
· I am content to exclude duplicate documents from my request.
· I seek draft versions of documents as well.
· I do not seek the personal affairs information of third parties as defined by s 33(9) of the FOI Act.
· I do not seek the commercial information of third parties.
· I insist upon receiving entire copies of documents, except where the commercial or personal information of third parties, as outlined above, needs to be deleted/obscured/removed. I want only the information pertaining to these two categories to be missing from the documents.
Yours sincerely,
Patsy Lisle
Dear Freedom of Information,
Hello again Janelle
I need to clarify the point made about personal information. I am not seeking any personal information that is restricted by the FOI Act in s33. That might include other kinds of personal information than that outlined in s33(9), as specified in your question.
That clarification also extends to my response to your question about entire or edited documents. The only information I want deleted/obscured/removed from the documents is personal affairs information of third parties as defined by s 33 of the FOI Act, or commercial information of third parties.
I hope that helps.
Yours sincerely,
Patsy Lisle
Dear Freedom of Information,
Hello again Janelle
I've been reading more about the FOI Act and am concerned not to lose access to documents which contain information restricted by the Act which might not be included in the two examples you presented me with. I'm writing this additional clarification to assure you I have no objection to information restricted by the FOI Act being redacted in otherwise unedited documents. I hope that makes things clear.
I trust if there was a problem with a particular type of information you believe should be restricted, but which I haven't now accounted for by this latest category of potential redaction, you will contact me to check redaction is OK. But I hope that the category of 'information restricted by the FOI Act' is both precise and inclusive enough.
I assume most, if not all of the relevant documents are electronic, and that you have the capacity for redacting precise and limited information in electronic documents. I just looked into it, and found I could easily do it in my free version of Adobe Acrobat.
Yours sincerely,
Patsy Lisle